February 4
Sara Welish
In the Iliad why doesn't anyone come out to help Hector when he is running from Achilles?
AR- To engage our sympathy for poor, ill-fated Hector?
Priam gives reasons for Hector to come back inside the walls but it does not seem like the usual attitude for men during the time. gods get more physically involved in the war
AR- I'm not sure what you mean about Priam
Zander
In the Iliad why did Athena want Hector to die?
AR-He's on the wrong side; remember Athena and Hera are mad at Paris for not choosing them.
Why did Achilles get so furious about the death of Patroclus, wouldn't he be used to his freinds dying in battle?
AR- As with Gilgamesh and Enkidu, Patroclus is more than a friend. In fact, many ancient Greeks thought they may have been lovers, at least in soul, if not in body. We'll see that Alexander's relationshop with Hephaestion is similar. Theseus and his friend Pirithous are also similar.
In Herodotus why did the festival mean that the Greeks couldn't fight?
AR- Spartans are typically portrayed as super-religious in most Greek sources. They have strict rules about observing such festivals. The Olympics was a Pan-hellenic (all-Greek) event which drew many Greeks.
And how true of a story is told here?
AR- Wouldn't we all like to know? Opinions vary even among the best classical scholars. What do you think?
Katie Burke
Why is it that the majority of heroes, from the ancient world to current day, are most always prove themselves in either a war or a series of tasks?
AR- I'm not sure if this is true. You may be using circular logic here. Do you define hero based on that criteria? Could we not have a wise hero like Gandhi or Martin Luther King? Or in the ancient world, how about Socrates or Jesus?
Did ancient motifs and oral traditions have an influence on Anglo-Saxon/Early English epics or stories?
AR- Absolutely. There is a ton of scholarship that suggests connections between Vergil and Beowulf, but this is a scholarly hornet's nest. There are Old and Middle English versions of the History of Apollonius of Tyre, based on a later Latin fictional "history" which was in turn based on a Greek novel that was based on earlier Greek and Near-eastern narratives. This story also was the source for Shakespeare's Pericles. I have translated a medieval Latin epic called Waltharius. It is influenced by both classical and late antique Latin sources and early Germanic sources, and it in turn influenced later Latin, Romance, and Germanic narratives. In fact, Tolkein seems to use the Waltharius' motif of the hero who loses his hand for Beren (one-handed) and Frodo (nine-fingered). Chaucer knew lots of Latin stories, either in Latin or through intermediate sources.
Jordann
Why is there a comparison between heroes and animals? Iliad 22.1-365
AR- Did you notice the bit about Leonidas' roar in the movie clip today? In the ancient world, lions and bulls and boars and bears (or the like) were obvious symbols for power and virility. Most humans cannot compare in strength with such animals. Note a lot of myths about heroes deal with the slaying of such monstrous animals, lions and bulls, etc. (e.g. Gilgamesh and the Bull of Heaven and Heracles' lion-slayings). Partly that reflects the prehistorical and early historical reality of a world in which man faced larger and more dangerous creatures in the world. Think of cave men and saber-toothed tigers and wooly mammoths. In fact, in ancient time lions and panthers still roamed the Near-east and parts of Europe, and aurochs (huge cattle, much bigger than cows/bulls today) survived well into the Roman period. Strong men would have been expected to be the human answer to such dangers.
Pat Boyle
Here is my question: How do heroes in modern epics compare to those in ancient epics?
AR- I think you may need to answer that yourself. What is a modern epic? Are you talking like Jake in the Dark Tower book or Batman?
Maeve
The first was that the name of the character Leon (7.179) had significance to his actions and role in the passage we read. What was the significance?
AR- See above on animals and heroes. Leon = "Lion"
Is it an example of Aetiology?
AR- I think it is a play on words but I don't think it is aetiology.
My second question was that in both The Dark Tower (pg.82) and in the Iliad (top of pg. 4) the importance to live and die with honor was mentioned. I was wondering if this was, or was more than just a theme in modern and ancient texts. Was the importance of honor meant as a moral? But if a moral, does that degrade the authenticity of the "historical" text? In The Dark Tower the mention of honor seemed more like a moral, where in the Iliad a common theme. Is there even much difference between the two classifications?
AR- Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "moral" here.
Krysta Brown
I was intrigued by Priam. It seems that all of the other kings and "great men" we have encountered are strong, heroic warriors, yet Priam is the wise old king. Are there other examples of a more learned, patient leader in Greek epics?
AR- Nestor, Alcinous, Odysseus (to some degree). In Herodotus, we frequently see the wise advisor type figure who has learned from life and shares his knowledge, often to no avail. Of course, I don't know how you are defining epic. Do you mean specifically only in epic poetry?
Doug
I just wanted to point out a #4 Common motif from different times and places. In the Herodotus reading on 7.190 Ameinocles, song of Cretines found all of these Persian treasures being washed up on the shore. His great luck is later followed by bad luck, where he ends up killing his own children. This motif is similar to modern day rural theology of Money does not always bring happiness. It is just very interesting to see a theme touched on within these older readings still hold weight in the modern world.
AR- "rural theology"? Certainly Gilgamesh learned that wealth does not provide happiness. Herodotus tells this kind of story frequently. A life can never be called happy (fortunate), until one dies well--so Herodotus and many others in the ancient and modern world think.
Rich
In the Iliad reading, I noticed a reference to the God Mars who is the Roman God of war. In greek mythology Mars is actually named Ares. How often do the names these Greek and Roman Gods switch and for what purpose?
AR- This is a translational problem. Homer would have said (he didn't write) Ares, but some translators change names to the Roman equivalent.
Stephen
How is Leonidas depicted by Herodotus? He did not seek the kingship, but it was forced upon him, does this make him more or less heroic in the eyes of Herodotus.
AR- Good question. We can't visit Herodotus in the underworld like Heracles would do, so this is a moment for reader response theory--- How did it change your view of him? I personally think it further adds to his glory and highlights his rare (good?) fortune.
Test Comment for CLS 276
ReplyDelete-AR
Sara Welish
ReplyDeleteClass: February 6
Herodotus's tone is very informal/conversational, does his tone diminish the truth of what he is saying? If he told the stories in a more formal tone would they be more believable?
Observations:
-women treated as property
-role of vengeance appears again (Astyages and Harpagus)
-women get stronger -> Tomyris actually in charge of army
-method of death for Massagetans is strange (1.216)
-book 2 is a lot of just background info about Egypt
-crocodiles and winged snakes seem random
Jordann Markowitz
ReplyDeleteClass: February 6
Are people only happy after they die because they may have done something to make them immortal? (1.32)
AR
ReplyDeleteFeb. 6
Sara, it depends on how you look at it. How does Herodotus' tone affect you? Why?
Jordann, I think that for Herodotus (and his characters like Solon) death puts an end to life so that it can then be evaluated as a whole. He is concerned with how the story (of someone's life) ends, not just the middle. Herodotus does have a lot to say about immortality (see his introduction), but I don't think that is what made Tellus happy.
Katie Burke
ReplyDeleteClass: February 6
It appears that abducting women was a pastime of sorts. Why so? I mean, wouldn't some sort of domesticated animal like a bull or horse or something been more practical for agricultural purposes or for daily life?
Shannon Potts
ReplyDeleteFeb 6
In 1.95 Herodotus says he knows four versions of how the Persians became so powerful, but he chooses the Persian version. What reasons might he have for this, as well as for not giving the other versions? In addition, this is the second instance of stating his use of Persian sources. As a Greek citizen, considering the relations between the Greeks and the Persians, why would he use the Persian sources over others, when he clearly does have them?
Maeve Tischbein
ReplyDeleteFeb. 6
I thought it was interesting how the Egyptian gods included characters such as Pan and Hercules. My question is if the gods mentioned really were of Egyptian origins how do the Greeks claim have Greek heros descended from them? Herodotus stated that the Egyptians "refused to accept his idea that a human being could be descended from a god" (2.143). How did the two cultures reconcile such opposition?
Andrew Gordon
ReplyDeleteFebruary 6
I see the recurrence of dreams a lot (Astyages and Cyrus) What is the role of the dream or vision? Is it supposed to be some kind of supernatural method of communicating with the divine or simply a dream that can be interpreted in many different ways? Also, who is qualified to interpret dreams or visions? Is there only one way to understand these dreams that is restricted to a select group?
Erin Bradley
ReplyDeleteFebruary 6
A lot of Herodotus' stories concern the succession of power and the conquering of one people over another. Are the little stories he tells a way of explaining how one line or one people over powered another when the truth is not really known? Or are they actually what happened? Unfortunately we will never really know but it is curious how there is always a detailed story when one people, such as the Persians, overthrows another, such as the Medes.
Also is there significance in Cyrus birth story in comparison to Romulus and Remes birth story? Is the Roman twins story adapted from Cyrus?
Krysta Brown 2/6/09
ReplyDeleteIn 1.90-91 Croesus decides to send his chains back to Greece to show his gratitude, but then he reproaches Apollo for his deceit, and asks if it was common for Greek gods to be ungrateful. I don't understand theis sequence of events. If Croesus is thankful to the Greeks for ultimately helping him obtain his freedom why is he so mad at Apollo?
Steve Fusco 2/6/09
ReplyDeleteIn 1.32-1.33, there is an episode between Croesus of Persia and Solon of Athens. They are talking about the happiest men on Earth, and Solon rates Croeses as low on the scale despite his wealth. Does Herodotus deliberately show the greeks, or the greek way of life, as being superior to Persia?
Doug Ritchey
ReplyDeleteIn class on Wed. we were discussing what the qualifications were for a "Heroic Death", and we all seemed to agree that the individual who was dying had to be a person who accumulated great wealth or renown. Solon on 1.32 makes a good point saying that it isn't enough just to have the wealth and renown, but you have to maintain those advantages until death in order for a hero to die well.
Bryan Jennings
ReplyDeleteWhen talking about the rise and fall of Cyrus, it sounds at many places like "official" propoganda used to create a powerful view of the Persian Empire, is Herodotus aware of this and did he try to find out the true story? Or is he just repeating tales told to him by presumably loyal Persian subjects?
AR
ReplyDeleteFeb. 6
Katie, I don't think you want to take the rape/abduction stories as historical incidents. However, in early tribal or small state societies it would have been important to vary the bloodlines (too much in-breeding isn't good), and thus the rape stories may preserve a distorted memory of a distant past.
Shannon, I think Herodotus alludes to details of the other versions (such as Cyrus being raised by a wild dog). Clearly he believess the Persians would know more than Greeks about their own history (certainly he is right, Greeks knew little about other peoples' history), and that the Persians who seem more sensible (because they don't make a dog raise Cyrus) are more trustworhty.
Maeve, You are confusing Herodtus with Hecataeus of Miletus who had traced himself back to "a god". Herodotus clearly portrays himself as believing the Egyptians account and makes the Greeks derive much of their theology from Egypt either directly or indirectly. Of course, when Herodotus talks about Greek gods in Egypt he is equating certain Greek gods with Egyptian gods, e.g. Ptah = Hephaestus.
AR Feb.6
ReplyDeleteAndrew,
Dreams as prophetic events is a cross-cultural idea seen in ancient literature and culture. Most societies seemed to feel that they did have a divine or supernatural origin. There are plenty of people today who still think so.
Anyone can interpret a dream, but as with oracles they may guess wrongly, even if they are "qualified" like Astyages' interpreters.
Erin, Yes, the transference of power story seem to be aetiologies explaining major shifts in history. Remember Herodotus is always interested in "Why?" Many have suggested that the Romulus and Remus exposure motif is adapted from some earlier tradition Cyrus, Moses, Oedipus.
Krysta, I don't understand. The Greeks never helped Croesus gain freedom. Croesus is mad at Apollo for leading him into destruction through his oracle. Apollo explains Cr. did not understand.
AR Feb. 6
ReplyDeleteSteve, There is a definite implication that simpler, less wealthy, more hard-working people are more fortunate in the end. The richer and more powerful you are, the harder you fall in Hdt.'s eyes. Thus wealthy Persia was in his view decadent by the time they faced the less wealthy and more vigorous Greeks. This is also why Cyrus fails to take the Massagetae, Cambyses fails to take the Ethiopians, and Darius fails to take Scythia.
Bryan, I don't see what you mean about the propaganda aspect of the Cyrus narrative. Could you explain? Herodotus at some places, including in the Persian account, shows awareness of problems of veracity and prejudice; but, of course, he does not always doubt or believe at the same points we do.
Zander
ReplyDeleteFeb. 6
Why did Candaules want Gyges to see his wife naked so much?
AR- Good question. What do you think?
Why was it so honorable for the two boys to die after pulling their mother to safety when there was no ox in Solon's story?
AR- It showed that the were strong as a bull-- remember heroes being compared to bulls and lions. After their death, their glory could live on without any chance for later misfortune.
Was it traditional that if a leader thought a prisoner had favor with the gods he would let them go?
AR- Not that I know of. It makes a good story though. Generally speaking the ancients were less skeptical than we are. Many leaders would have acted according to religious beliefs.
Why do they want to expose Cyrus to kill him instead of just a sword or something?
AR- Recurring motif? Probably this story is a complete fiction based on folktale patterns.
Why did they curse the bulls head when they sacrificed it in Egypt?
AR- It was a scapegoat- an object to receive all the evil that might otherwise have fallen on them.
Is Heracles really Egyptian in origin?
AR- This is not a straightforward yes or no really. But I will nevertheless say "no" for simplicity. Heracles is for many, including Herodotus, both a historical man and a god, and thirdly a symbol or type for other great men to follow. Herodotus saw connections between Heracles the god and an Egyptian person whom he called by the same name. He then equated the two.
Katie Burke
ReplyDeleteClass: February 9
Why is it that when a king or someone of high importance dies his attendants, concubines, horses, etc are buried with him (4.71-75)? Do they believe that these people will accompany him in the afterlife? I know that this is true of some Ancient Chinese civilizations, like the Western Zhou (around 400BCE), but do the same principals apply to this culture?
Sara Welish
ReplyDeleteClass: February 9
In the story of Targitaus' lineage (4.5) would the two older brothers really yield to the youngest brother so easily?
This theme (older brothers overcome my youngest brother) appears again later in the selection (4.10). Is there any significance in this theme or is it just a coincidence?
Jordann Markowitz
ReplyDeleteClass: February 9
Is it possible that Thomas More based the idea of gold shackles in his novel Utopia from the comment of the Ethiopian King? (3.22)
Krysta Brown
ReplyDeleteClass: 2/9/09
Plutarch choses to use mostly examples from Thucydides to prove his assertions about Herodotus, and uses only a few definitive examples from
"The Histories." Was Plutarch a big Thucydides fan?
Putarch in [43] points out a very interesting fact when he says that Herodotus made the Greek enemies seem great and strong, in order to improve the Greek warrior's image.
Steve Fusco
ReplyDeleteClass - 2/9
In Plutarchs writing on the Malice of Herodotus, he points out in Sign 1 that Herodotus "puts the worst construction on things.". Basically, he says that Herodotus uses overly flamboyant or exaggerated language when he should use more accurate and simple terms. My question is: What is necessarily wrong with that kind of writing? What are the dangers and/or advantages of embellished vocabulary in a history, and why did Herodotus choose to write like that?
Maeve Tischbein
ReplyDeleteFeb. 9
In both the events with the Ethiopian King (3.21) and Heracles (4.9-10) the two men say that if someone wants to rule the land they must draw the bow that they present to the messengers/woman-viper.
Is this task symbolic of the strength of a ruler? Can parallels be be drawn to King Arthur and the sword in the stone?
Erin Bradley
ReplyDeleteFebruary 9
When Herodotus gives multiple accounts of how something came about or was named he usually says which one he believes is correct or more believable. Does he pick the ones that don't have supernatural characteristics on purpose? Does this make them seem more tangible to him or are there other reasons for his choices?
Shannon Potts
ReplyDeleteFeb 9
Herodotus seems to characterize Polycrates is easily swayed. The Egyptian king as well as Oroetes convince him of various ideas (3.40, 3.122). Is this an example of Sign 6 and Sign 8 from Plutarch?
Bryan Jennings
ReplyDeleteHerodotus mentions that many of the Scythian tribes know Greek gods, only by different names. Is this a reflection of the Scythians themselves (ie. do they think of their gods as Greek gods by another name) or is this something Herodotus assumes by seeing similarities with Scythian tribal gods and Greek gods (ie. Herodotus sees The Scythian god of war has the same divine portfolio [for lack of a better term] as Ares, thus, Herodotus says he is Ares, only called something different)
Doug Ritchey
ReplyDeleteIn book 4.5, I noticed that the Scythians traced their lineal descent back to Targitaus, who was son of Zeus and a daughter of the Borysthenes River, which is similar to that of the Greeks who trace their lineage back to Hercules. It seems to be a common motif for warring/strong races to trace their descent back to the Gods or Heros.
Rich Rodd 2/9
ReplyDeleteI found the correlation between Egyptian and Greek deities pretty interesting. I never thought that one would have had such a strong impact on the other.
Andrew Gordon
ReplyDeleteFeb. 9
Plutarch says that Herodotus is as bad as a man"[making] a show of being just when one is not so". Does Herodotus claim to be the most accurate historian on any of these accounts? Plutarch also talks about Herodotus' choice of the "worst" possible story line when he encounters multiple ones. Is it only the "worst" because it is the Greek point of view?
AR
ReplyDeleteFeb. 9
Katie, Yes, if this story about the burial of Scythian kings is true (and we have archaeological evidence for it), then the Scythians seem to believe, like the Egyptians, Chinese, and others, that they will accompany their leader.
Sara,
I believe that the Targitaus story and the following Greek story with three brothers are based on common foltale patterns. The number three and the prominence of the youngets brother is traditional. You are right.
Jordann,
I am sure that he did. Herodotus' descriptions of far off peoples were very influential on later travel and utopian narratives.
Krysta,
He seems to be a Thucydides fan. Remember he thinks Herodotus is too hard on the Boeotians--Plutarch was Boeotian.
I don't see Plutarch anywhere saying that Herodotus improves the Greeks' image by making the enemy seem greater. However, you are right that Herodotus (and other historians) does this--it is a narrative technique that good novelists and screenwriters use too. Luke Skywalker would not be nearly as good a hero if Darth and the Emperor were less powerful.
Steve,
I think that Plutarch actually means that Herodotus says things in the most suggestively bad way. I don't think that there is anything wrong with implying something bad through clever use of language. Why does Plutarch not like it?
Maeve,
ReplyDeleteYou are right. The bow is a symbol of the hero-king's strength and the sword in the stone is a perfecrt parallel. Compare also the bow of Heracles in the Trojan Cycle and Odysseus' bow in the Odyssey. Also compare Theseus lifting the huge rock to get his father's sword.
Erin,
I think that he is honestly trying to make sense of the world (some say he lies or makes it up), so he is using the same tools as Hecataeus of Miletus. He employs reason to decide what is most probable. However, his reasoning may not always correspond to ours...
Shannon,
I am not sure. It seems to me like Polycrates is portrayed as a complete scoundrel and his gullibility in the case of Oroetes seems to show how his greed overcomes his usual dastardly cleverness. Like all fated to die horribly, he ignores the divine prophecy (in his daughter's dream) and marches onward to doom.
Bryan,
Probably, as we said in class, Herodotus shares these assumptions with the Scythians and Greeks who were neighbors. Cultural assimilation of this sort is a constant in neighboring human cultures.
Doug,
Absolutely, divine or heroic parentage was a common point of nobility in the ancient world which was far more class-based than modern America. Birth meant everything. Still, even in our society, descendants of important (heroic or legendary?) people, like George Washington or Theodore Roosevelt, are treated with respect, though we do not believe in descent from gods.
Zander
ReplyDeleteFeb. 9
In book seven when talking about Onomacritus, what does Herodotus mean when he says he is an "Oracle collector"?
AR- He put together collections of prophecies by Musaeus. Notice that he has some false/fictional prohecies.
How exactly was Polycrates supposed to have died? it seems like there are some pretty gruesome deaths that he mentions, what could be so bad that he doesn't?
AR- We don't know, since Herodotus did not say. Presumably it was gruesome and perhaps torturous: impalement? mauled by wild animals? maimed and left to die?
Your guess as to why is as good as mine.
This isn't a question, but I thought that it was really interesting that Herodotus describes most other peoples (besides the Greeks) as being very barbaric with gruesome customs, but the he describes the Ethiopians as basically perfect humans.
AR- Yes, he clearly treats them as an almost ideal society, a sort of utopia. I think this is tied up with his idea of the corruption of decadent civilization. The Ethiopians are not decadent; they are still living a tough and disciplined life. Note that some peoples start out tough and degrade into overly civilized decadence such as Croesus' Lydians and Cyrus' Persians. Herodotus connects the environment and way of life with the character of the people.
AR
ReplyDeleteFeb. 9
Rich,
It is hard to say what exact connections there were between cults. Modern scholars usually see the greatest connections between Greek mystical cults. The Egyptian goddess Isis for example was connected with Aphrodite and many other Greek goddesses. Osiris could be connected with Dionysus. Pythagorean philosophers and the Orphic cultist were also influenced by Egyptian and Near-eastern beliefs. In Herodotus' times, some Greeks lived in Egypt, but the particulars of what he says are often debated. It is hard to say which Egyptian gods he is referring to when he calls them by Greek names (There is a good commentary by an egyptologist named Lloyd who tries to make these equations).
Andrew,
Herodotus often criticizes his predecessors though usually without citing them by name. He criticizes poets for their myths; for example, he blames Homer and other poets for inventing the River Ocean. He criticizes Anaximander, Thales, and Hecataeus (without mentioning their names) when he tells about their theories of the Nile. Then he gives his own theory which is actually wrong. Later he implies that he is better than Hecataeus who wrongly thought he was descended from a god in the 16th generation, even though the Egyptian priests "proved" that the gods lived much more than 16 generations ago.
As to Herodotus choosing the "worst" story, yes, Plutarch is criticizing him for making the Greeks look bad. However, this does not make much sense. Anyone who reads the Thermopylae or Salamis narrative knows that the Greeks receive copious praise. Plutarch just wants only praise, no reservations and no record of mistakes and disgraces. I personally am glad that Herodotus did not follow Plutarch's rules of history.
Sara Welish
ReplyDeleteClass: February 11
Can the King choose anyone to be his successor or does it have to be his oldest son? In the story of Periander, he wanted to make his younger son, Lycophron, the king instead of his older son. Would this really happen?
Jordann Markowitz
ReplyDeleteClass: February 11
What is the significance of all of the thigh injuries? Both Apis and Cambyses died of wounds that they received in their thighs.
Shannon Potts
ReplyDeleteFeb 11
Given Herodotus' own definition of truth and lies (3.72) (which he gave through a speech he created) could his work simply be classified as propaganda?
Also, adding to Jordan, one of the Persian "conspirators" was also wounded in the thigh when fighting the Magi. And in Greek myth, Dionysus was sewn into Zeus' thigh. Is the thigh a significant place?
Krysta Brown
ReplyDelete2/11/09
In the story of Smerdis (4.69), Otanes tells his daugher to feel for Smerdis' ears while he sleeps? I thought this was peculiar, did Magi have some type of odd anatomy when it came to ears? Is there any archaeological or evolutionary evidence for Magi having different ears from Persians? Did the Persians mutilate them for some reason because they were an enslaved people?
Krysta Brown
ReplyDelete2/9/09
I just re-read the passage and answered my own question. Although I wonder what he did that led to his ears getting cut off...
Erin Bradley
ReplyDeleteFebruary 11
Herodotus mentions over and over again how Cambyses is not is insane and a lunatic. I wonder what kind of condition he actually had? Based on the stories concerning Cambyses can we say he was bipolar in some way? Because at some points he seems very level headed. For instance when he finds out that Smerdis (the 2nd one) is alive and thinks it's the one he had Perxaspes kill he doesn't go crazy and kill Perxaspes out right. Instead he listens and discerns what really was going on. This doesn't seem like a lunatic. Yet, when he goes about burying people alive he certainly seems crazy. Are these simply traits of a tyrant?
AR
ReplyDeleteFeb. ll
Sara,
I think that he chose the younger son because the older son was intellectually challenged. Everyone would have understood the choice. Similar things happened elsewhere when heirs were not fit to rule. However, we should note that Periander is a tyrant, not an heir to a long royal line.
Jordann,
What do you think? It seems like an obviously prophetic symbol, whether you believe it to be real or invented bu Herodotus or his source. Cambyses wounds and kills the god-cow, and then he dies the same way and by the same hand. Poetic justice, isn't it? Can you think of any similar story patterns?
Shannon,
Ah the cynicism! Very good, Darius is ultra slimy in that speech, but he does make a point. We often lie to get what we want. What is wrong with that??? Well, I guess a lot could be wrong... We don't want to fall into the trap of believing Herodotus to believe every argument out of the mouths of his characters. I think that none of his characters are simple. No one of them is completely good and wise nor completely bad and stupid. Remember what we have said about modern narrative theory. Point of view matters. Statements can be "focalized" through certain characters, mentioned in 3rd person narrative, or claimed by the first person narrator. I don't think that Herodotus would agree with Darius but maybe that is just me...
As to the thigh, I think it often had sexual significance in the ancient world but I am not sure how that would work here. I am not sure about the magus. Do you have an idea why he was wounded in the thigh?
Krysta,
As you read on, you find out that Magus had his ears cut off for some offense that Herodotus omits to name. One could believe that H. is making the whole thing up, but it seems to me because of that omission and other passages where he appears to cut things short that he is actually basing his report on a much longer narrative with more sensationalization. The magi were usually honored because of their religious importance in Persian culture, but it would seem that after this rebellion, they were watched much more closely if the Magiphonia festival is not a tall tale. I too wonder what he did. I have a feeling that Herodotus thought it was not worthy of recording because this whole story sounds like a harem tale out of the Arabian Nights. What do you think?
Erin,
I guess we'll never know for sure. But think about it from a literary point of view since at least part of this is fiction and filled out into a narrative. Who else have we seen with bouts of madness? It is a common trait of heroes and great leaders from Gilgamesh and Heracles onward; Nebuchadnezzar in the Bible is another example. Herodotus specifically says that Cambyses had the sacred disease which we usually understand to be epilepsy or perhaps another mental disorder such as schizophrenia. In any case, Heracles' madness was also attributed to the sacred disease. Many historical leaders have since been said to have such a mental problem. Alexander the Great is often (erroneously) called an epilectic. Julius Caesar was epilectic according to several accounts. Is this a literary theme in the portrayal of great men or is it a sign of mental problems being common in the great??? What do you think?
As to the traits of a tyrant, certainly tyrants in Herodotus and elsewhere often are shown to devolve into madness from an earlier state of decency. Tacitus' Tiberius is a good example of that. Again this may be both a literary theme and a reality due to the corruption of power.
Maeve Tischbein
ReplyDeleteFeb. 11
In 3.26 the location Oäsis is mentioned and is said to mean "Isle of the Blessed" in greek. Doe this have any connections to the Isle of the Blessed mentioned in other stories we've read? Or a metaphor for the place?
Katie Burke
ReplyDeleteFeb. 11
In 3.31 it talks about Cambyses being married to his full sister and being in love with other sisters. Although it says it was not customary in Persia, was it customary in other places? Was it culturally accepted? I know that often times these ancient cultures were incestuous, but I always had this idea of it meaning cousins or half siblings, but not full siblings.
Bryan Jennings
ReplyDeleteHerodotus will often say things like "this sounds reasonable to me" or "I find this unlikely" but he doesn't often go into why he feels one way or the other, and the logic itself isn't horribly intuitive to a modern audience. Should we see Herodotus's believing certain stories but not others as more his personal preference/beliefs, or would it be fair to say the stories he picks as true or false would likely be the opinion of his contemporaries as well?
Doug Ritchey
ReplyDeleteFor Steve's discussion he wanted to look at some of the accusations of Herodotus being inaccurate. One of the reasons for these accusations would be the depiction of "mythical" animals. ex.. idea of the Apis, a calf born of a cow struck by a beam of light and is never able to conceive again. The Apis was marked by a diamond and the image of an eagle. We also ran into the half-woman half-snake character last class,
AR
ReplyDeleteFeb. 11
Maeve,
Yes, in Greek myth/religion, the isle of the blest is where heroes or those blessed by the gods go. Herodotus does not specifically say but what implication would this translation of Oasis (3.26) have for Greek readers?
Katie,
It was not accepted in Greece or Rome either. Although some Greeks married 1st cousins, I think Herodotus would see it as an abomination. There are some examples of such sibling marriages in myth (gods and goddesses often) and in history--the ptolemaic pharoahs of Egypt come to mind.
Bryan,
No two people will always agree. There is no general answer to your question. One must take each case as it comes. I feel like I usually understand Herodotus' reasoning and I often agree with him. Try to pick out a specific passage that we could discuss.
Doug,
True, what I would ask is: Does Herodotus endorse the truth of these stories? Whether or not he does, does the inclusion of the stories prove any charge of fiction or inaccuracy? How does their inclusion affect you as a reader? Do you think others would react the same way? If not, how might another reader react?
Herodotus often portrays Greeks in a better light than he does Persians. Why do you think this is so, and what internal biases does Herodotus have towards Greek culture/ or against Persian culture?
ReplyDeletePete d.
Jordann Markowitz
ReplyDeleteFebruary 13
The account displays Cyrus in a very favorable light. Is the account supposed to be first hand, or did Xenophon put it together through stories that he had heard from other people? If Cyrus had eyes and ears everywhere what is to say that these stories were not told with prejudice in favor of Cyrus from the start?
Sara Welish
ReplyDeleteFebruary 13
In the beginning, when Xenophon is comparing how hard it is to control people and how easily animals follow their masters, is he saying that people should be more like animals in that they should just blindly follow their leaders?
Maeve Tischbein
ReplyDeleteFeb. 13
At the end of the "Education of Cyrus" the author states that the following Persians after Cyrus were less manly and pious. Is this related to the ideas we've discussed in previous classes where sons were never quite as good as their fathers (a dilution of heroism over generations; i.e. the sons of Hercules not as heroic as their father ect.) or an retrospective observation of the decline of a 'golden age' of the Persian culture?
Shannon Potts
ReplyDeleteFeb 13
What were Xenophon's sources? And his purpose in writing? I find it very interesting to see how different some of the accounts of Cyrus' life in Xenophon are from that we read in Herodotus.
Andrew Gordon
ReplyDeleteFeb 13
Through this account, Cyrus is portrayed with a very keen intellect, but sometimes on the battlefield he acts without reason. For example, in the victory against the Assyrian cavalry, Cyrus fights like he is out out of his mind. Is it better for a leader to think less on the battlefield and rely more on his instincts? It seems like a leader with a rational thought process can benefit more in war by abandoning his reasoning.
Krysta Brown
ReplyDelete2/13/09
I find the Persian empire to be very interesting. I'd be interested in knowing a bit more about the history of Persia. At the end Xenophon describes the degradation of Persia after Cyrus dies. But the Persian empire help strong until Alexander, right? Is Xenophon simply making his own judgement based on culture and not on power of the empire?
Erin Bradley
ReplyDeleteFebruary 13
Are we, as modern readers, more likely to believe Xenophon's stories of Cyrus or Herodotus's sotries of Cyrus? What makes one more credible or believable than the other? Are we more likely to credit Herodotus because he states his sources or does this not matter?
AR Feb 13
ReplyDeleteJordann,
Xenophon (late 5th to early 4th cent. BC) lived long after Cyrus the Great (mid 6th Cent. BC), so his sources would be long after the facts. His sources would include Herodotus (and any other earlier Greeks who happened to mention Cyrus) and Persian or other near Eastern stories that he might have heard second or third hand. Xenophon may have know a little Persian but probably heard oral retellings of Persian stories from Persians and Persian allies that he met in his travels (his Anabasis tells about his adventures as a Greek commander in Persian territory). Certainly during Cyrus' time few would have wanted to risk criticizing him, but these stories are many years later when criticism would not be a problem.
Sara,
You hit the nail on the head. He compares people who are ruled to herd animals. I don't want to be like that nor would Xenophon. Still, his comparison makes sense even if it is distasteful to compare people to stock. However, you can read it (via reader response theory) as implicit criticism of Cyrus who treated people like animals, even if Xenophon did not intend us to read it that way.
Maeve,
Yes, it is. I think that this is a temptation for many societies. The Romans were obsessed with their better past and degenerate present. Even today older Americans generations often complain of the degenerate youth. Why do you think this is? Why do we talk about golden ages?
Shannon,
See my answer to Jordann on sources. His purpose is spelled out in the intro: t explain how one guy could be so successful at ruling people, who are so hard to rule (unlike herd animals). Yes, hopefully we can discuss some of the specific differences and the sources and reasons for differences.
Andrew,
What do you think? Is his impulsiveness in battle portrayed as good or bad? I think one could understand it either way, but X. probably meant it as one or the other.
Krysta,
Xenophon had a good bit of practical experience with the Persian empire, since he was part of a group of mercenaries that helped one Persian Cyrus the Younger (not our Cyrus) attack King Artaxerxes, and then he helped leading the Greeks who survived this failed battle through Persian territory back to Greece (the story of his Anabasis). He knew Persians and had firsthand experience with their contemporary habits and military strategies. It is his opinion but he had knowledge to base it on.
Erin,
Very good questions with no simple answers... Whom do you believe? Why?
Katie
ReplyDeleteFeb. 13
I found that Xenophon wrote in a similar style as Herodotus. For example, he tells the story and then jumps to another one (this was in 1.2.15, which we were not assigned to read but I wasn't really paying attention). Is this just the oral style influencing writing, or was Xenophon influenced by Herodotus?
AR-
It is common in all ancient histories to have what we call digressions. The difference in Herodotus is that his ring structures provide prophetic foreshadowing of the sort that you would see in a folk tale or similar oral narrative. Xenophon's style is not completely dissimilar, but it is more polished and philosophical.
Katie Burke
ReplyDeleteFeb. 15
It seems as if Lycurgus set up a society that was geared towards warfare. However, the third rhetra says that they shouldn't make frequent visits to enemies because that would make them see 'warlike'. This rule and the Spartan society seem to contradict each other. Why would they not want to seem warlike if they were very military-orientated?
Jordann Markowitz
ReplyDeleteClass: Feb. 16
In both stories, people died by starving themselves to death. What would be the importance of that?
AR
ReplyDeleteFeb. 16
Katie,
"A third rhetra of Lycurgus is mentioned, which forbids making frequent expeditions against the same enemies, in order not to accustom such enemies to frequent defence of themselves, which would make them warlike." This means Lycurgus did not want to make the enemies warlike. He did not want them to learn from having to fight too often. So he wanted Spartans to attack many different enemies.
Jordann,
Death by suicide is not accepted by modern American society. Christianity specifically condemns it. However, heroic suicide is found in other cultures (cf. Japan's medieval samurai warriors) including ancient Greek and Roman society with famous examples such as Socrates (who basically seems to have chosen his own execution), Cato the Younger, Seneca the Younger, and Petronius. The heroism derives, I think, from one's willingness to face death. There are earlier heroic parallels such as Heracles (who contrived his own funeral pyre), Chiron (who gave his immortality to Prometheus), the brothers Castor and Pollux, and the heroine Alcestis. Jesus basically brought about his own death, just as Socrates, when he could have easily avoided it. Still, this is considered entirely different by most modern Americans. I think the Greeks and Romans would not have seen so great a difference.
Can we think of any historical or literary parallels from later Western culture or specifically from American history/literature.
Erin Bradley
ReplyDeleteFebruary 16
There seems to be some similarities in the structure of the Persian and Spartan societies. Specifically relating to how men are raised and the certain steps they go through. What are these similarities? Since both seem very much associated with fighting and war which method of training would produce better soldiers and why?
This is a random qustion: What are ephors? When did these come about and why does Plutarch talk about them so much? That was just confusing me.
Shannon Potts
ReplyDeleteFeb 16
The Spartan way of life is very different from other Greeks, and even more so than from the Romans--especially with regards to women. However, in the Life of Lycurgus, Plutarch seems to be suggesting their way of life is perfectly reasonable, and an honorable and desirable way to live. Might he have believed this? If not, why write about it in such a way?
Maeve Tischbein
ReplyDeleteFeb. 16
In paragraph 323-325 of The Life of Numa, Numa gives a speech addressing his principles. Is this bit of dialogue an elaboration of his feelings or an interjection of Plutarch's through the character as we saw in our readings of Xenophon?
Sara Welish
ReplyDeleteFeb. 16
At the very beginning, of the Life of Lycurgus, Plutarch states that everything about the man is disputed, if this is the case is the text reliable or is it fabricated like we saw with Herodotus?
Stephen Fusco
ReplyDelete2/16
In "the life of Lycurgus", Is Plutarch's real intention to show that because of Lycurgus, Sparta becomes a nation built from the best parts of every other nation in the world? Is he trying to say that because of this, Sparta is perfect?
Zander,
ReplyDeleteI thought it was very interesting that in both stories the men who are considered the most wise are very liberal. Both of them promote peace and equal distribution of wealth. Is that a cultural thing, where the Greeks and Romans just thought that was wise, or is it across cultures where that is revered? I also liked the theme in Lycurgus where the wise man is blinded but can still see, it reminds me of the Dune saga.
Krysta Brown
ReplyDelete2.16.09
Is Lycurgus' wife's brother "Leonidas" the same Leonidas from the battle fo Thermopolyae?
I also think the treatment of women is interesting in Sparta, the fist time we really see them valued.
Doug Ritchey
ReplyDeleteTo answer the question of why Plutarch would have portrayed Lycurgus's reformed Spartan utopia as perfect or near perfect; I feel that Plutarch is more interested in how the influences of one person effects the lives of those around him/her instead of actual historic events. Lycurgus's changes in government would have been a prime example of Plutarch's interest, and since Lycurgus based his reforms off of the prime spartan virtues, that is why Sparta was portrayed as "perfect".
AR
ReplyDeleteFeb. 16
Erin,
Ephors were 5 elected officials of the older generation. They headed up the gerousia (called the Senate in your translation). They had power to check the kings and even arrest the kings if the kings acted contrary to law. Herodotus thought Lycurgus established them (1.65); Plutarch thinks they came later.
What do you think about Spartans versus Persians? Whose customs would produce the best soldiers? Why? Is that what we should want out of a society?
Shannon,
I think that he did believe it to be a good way of life. I can think of no reason why he would lie. Why do you think a nerdy Boeotian scholar and priest of Delphi would write this way about the Spartans in the heyday of the Roman empire? You should recall the many comparisons he makes between Rome and Sparta. Still, there are notable differences such as the customs concerning boys.
Maeve,
Many people suspect that Numa may not have even been real. If he was, then his life is still mostly legendary/mythical. Plutarch and other ancient Greeks and Romans had no trustworthy sources about any speeches that he gave. Thus this, as most speeches in ancient histories and biographies, is invented by Plutarch or his source in order to "fill out" the tale. When this happens, the author may write a speech that he agrees with wholly or partially or even a speech that he completely disagrees with. What makes you think Plutarch agrees?
Sara,
As all accounts of a subject belonging to a pre- or proto-historical period, the life of Numa is best considered as legendary. Some details may be partially true or at least based on truth; many stories are completely made up. In this class, we are more concerned with literature than with history though. Why does Plutarch tell these stories in the first place? Why does he pair the lives of Numa and Lycurgus?
Steve,
Why do you think this? If this is true, how would/does Plutarch explain Sparta's fall? How would you?
Zander,
That was good to notice Lycurgus' blindness (at least in one eye). Certainly physical blindness is often connected with second sight in literature; I think the story is suspiciously symbolic and probably fictional. As for the promotion of peace and equal distribution of wealth, these are seen as wise in many ancient texts but not all. Nor are they generally admired today. Socialism and particularly communism have historically proven themselves to have serious problems.
Krysta,
No, as Plutarch indicates, Lycurgus is supposed to be very early (often dated to 8th or 7th century BC), whereas Thermopylae was in 481 BC. Herodotus' Leonidas probably was named after the legendary on from the story of Lycurgus. I'm not sure I would say that this is the first time women are valued. Certainly there are signs of women of power in the creation cycles of the Greeks and the Enuma Elish (Tiamat), although in both of these there is an indication that the males eventually triumphed. Also in the Gilgamesh epic, the prostitute was the only one who could conquer Enkidu. Also remember the Amazons in myth and in Herodotus' Scythian account. ...and Tomyris. Herodotus also tells a story of a powerful Babylonian ruler Semiramis who was a woman (1.84, 3.155), though we did not read it.
Katie Burke
ReplyDeleteFeb. 18
Was Ariel from the Tempest inspired by or crafted after Athena or some other God/Goddess? If so, why did Shakespeare make him bound to Prospero? Wouldn't an Athena or God-like figure have helped out Prospero regardless?
Why couldn't Odysseus build a raft on his own and leave the island if he no longer wanted to be there? If Prospero wanted to get back at his brother so badly why didn't he just build a boat and leave the island?
ReplyDeleteSara Welish
ReplyDeleteFebruary 17
Forgot to write my name for the last post, sorry!
Shannon Potts
ReplyDeleteFeb 17
In the myth of Anchises and Aphrodite, mortal men thought they would be made impotent for sleeping with goddesses, and according Plutarch, goddesses do not look for lower-class mates. Why then, would Odysseus sleep with both Calypso and Circe with no thought to the consequences? Also, why might all the gods create disasters that don't actually kill him? For example, Zeus strikes his ship with lighting, but has been known to hit the actual offender instead of the ship he happens to be on.
Jordann Markowitz
ReplyDeleteFeb 18
Was there any significance to Circe changing the men into pigs? Were pigs seen in a certain symbolic way during this time?
Maeve Tischbein
ReplyDeleteFeb. 18
It seemed to me there were a number of parallels not only between "The Tempest" and the selection from "The Odyssey" but also from the earlier story "The Shipwrecked Sailor". In all 3 an important character is shipwrecked on an island but is unhurt, also the character receives magical or divine help in one form or another. Are the themes of the later stories connected or based off the older Egyptian story?
Zander,
ReplyDeleteIn The Tempest, why does Ariel do things for Prospero? (it mentioned something about him saving her but wasn't specific at all)
Stephen Fusco,
ReplyDelete2/18
I'm actually a little confused about one part in the Odyssey. At the beginning of the passage we read, it states that Athena (minerva) was basically begging for the life of Odysseus from Zeus, yet later on it's stated that she was the reason his fleet was destroyed and he was marooned on the island in the first place. I don't really get it.
Erin Bradley
ReplyDeleteFebruary 18
In other ancient sources about heros we see the gods giving them armor or weapons to aid them. Here we see various gods giving things of protection to aid Odysseus. Do the objects heros are granted tell us what type of hero they are?
Doug Ritchey
ReplyDeleteTo answer Krysta and Pat's question of if we are still influenced by tales from the ancient world, today I saw a group of elementary students calling their fellow classmate 'Hercules' for being able to piggy back two girls at the same time. This clearly shows that the tales of Hercules great strength are still continuing to be passed on.
AR
ReplyDeleteFeb. 18
Katie,
As you can see on the Wikipedia page for the Tempest, no one literary model has been found for the Tempest although there are some verbal echoes that show familiarity with Ovid's account of Medea, a well-known Greek witch. Certainly the idea of Ariel as a helper is akin to the heroes' divine helpers. It is even closer to the ideas of witches' familiars and the common idea of spirits or other magical beings. For example, one of Gilgamesh's helpers was the spirit or demon Lugulbanda. Witches in Greek and other ancient societies could bind spirits or command them to do certain things. Similar ideas can be seen in medieval and modern society. Circe in the Odyssey has some helpers (who are presumably magical like herself but less powerful). It is this subservient, bound nature that makes Ariel so different from Athena, though both play helping roles.
AR
ReplyDeleteFeb. 18
Sara,
Odysseus complained to Calypso even after she suggests it that the raft would not be seaworthy.
As to Prospero, I think the answer would be because the story does not work that way. Shakespeare made it up the way he wanted to. But if Prospero sailed to Italy, he would have had to face fullscale war against his brother who would have all the troops of Milan. Also it is not clear if Ariel could venture that far from the island or if Prospero's power would be as great there.
Shannon,
As for the myth of Anchises and Aphrodite, recall Gilgamesh's reaction to Ishtar's offer of divine marriage. Many of the stories of Aphrodite's wasted and emasculated loves are derived from Ishtar's traditions. Circe and Calypso are both minor goddesses far from Olympus so they are in a liminal realm between human and divine. Also he is sort of forced into it, isn't he? Zeus is mysterious because of his close association with fate or destiny, but as we discussed in class today, he is often more hands off. He knows of Odysseus' many pious actions and honors paid to the gods and does not write him off so quickly as Poseidon. Still, Greek gods are never quite perfect, so it is possible that he could miss.
Jordann,
Well, I think they were obviously very eager to get the food and drink she offered as a pig is at the slop trough. It seems a likely point of comparison whether or not it was originally intended. Authorial intention is notoriously hard to guess and impossible to prove.
Maeve,
Very good job for noticing the parallels to the Shipwrecked Sailor narrative, which is the earliest of this type of travel/shipwreck tale that I am aware of. I mentioned before about interchange of culture and stories between Greeks and Egyptian and Near Eastern societies in the pre-historical period. Probably the Egyptian tale was not the first such, but only the first preserved. Surely the poet of the Odyssey (Homer or whoever) would have heard some stories of sailing travel and shipwrecks and some of them may have been derived from Egyptians or other non-Greeks. It is probably unlikely that he was directly influenced by the Shipwrecked Sailor tale, however.
Stephen,
The translation is misleading there. Zeus just says that Athena has foreseen the way for Odysseus' return home. The shipwreck was not planned by her but it works within her plan is what Zeus implies.
Erin,
I think that it is important what kind of help and gifts heroes receive. Remember that gods can grant immortality if they want, but that boon is rare and really Zeus has pretty much decided against allowing it by the time of Trojan War. Odysseus' key weapon is the bow which he received from Iphitus the Son of Eurytus. Eurytus was supposed to be the best bowman other than Heracles (who killed Eurytus and his whole family), and according to Odysseus Heracles and Eurytus even rivaled the gods. It is significant, I think, that Odysseus does not have his bow for most of the Odyssey. Once he gets it; he is virtually undefeatable as long as he has arrows. Certainly Achilles' divine arms and armor are the mark of a military sort of hero. Heracles' bow, club, and lionskin are the attributes of a wanderer or nomad. The moly herb that Odysseus gets from Hermes fits his wily deceptive nature, whereas Achilles' shield in the Iliad fits his militarisitic nature. Can you think of more such examples?
Doug,
Good point. As I have pointed out, Heracles/Hercules is the greatest Greco-Roman hero and the proto-type for all others. He is perhaps the best known hero of all in Western culture, owing partly to the 90s TV show and the Disney flick. Though we often know him for his strength and maybe for his 12 labors, note that he was also portrayed as a general and admiral who led armies and fleets on campaign, as a world traveler, as a civilizing hero who invented or built things to better mankind, and generally as a wise and clever man, not just strong. Also some of the sources describe him as short!
Katie Burke
ReplyDeleteFeb. 20
In Cicero, Africanus talks about the music of the spheres. Where/How did the Romans come up with this idea?
We have read many creation myths in class but we have never seen the creation of Love before, why is that? In the other creation myths Love is not even mentioned.
ReplyDeleteSara Welish
ReplyDeleteFebruary 20
Sorry! The last post was me again.
Jordann Markowitz
ReplyDeleteFebruary 20
I noticed that Plato had a lot of references to outside sources. In other readings, like Heroditus, we have seen that authors used these sources to make their points seem more plausible. Would Plato being doing the same thing here?
Maeve Tischbein
ReplyDeleteFeb. 20
I noticed in Socrates speech of what he'd learned from Diomatia that he mentions the idea that Love is a pursuit of immorality in some fashion (i.e. having kids). My question is is this idea of Love's relationship to immortality related to the themes of immortality we've discussed earlier (i.e kleos and timé from out epic cycle discussion)?
Zander,
ReplyDeleteI think that it was interesting when he was talking about Achilles in the Illiad, he assumed that he and Patroclos were lovers, was that a common thought at the time? Also, what exactly inspired the dinner party to have this conversation?
Erin
ReplyDeleteFebruary 20
I know that it is Plato who is probably writing all of these speeches. Because the speeches differ in opinion would it be fair to say that the speech Plato would most likely agree with, or the one that he would give would be Socrates? Not only because it is the longest but because it fully integrates all the ideas of the others and seems the most logical?