In the Myth of Er, it says that he appeared to them like a 'messenger' (or angel) from the other world. Could this have been influenced by Judaism, or other religions?
On the second page of The Dream of Scipio, Africanus says "humans are brought into existance in order to inhabit the earth." In our other readings the gods created humans so they will be worshipped. Does this text show the decline of interest in the gods?
In our last reading music (rhythm and harmony) was used as a metaphor for balance in Eryximachos speech on love. Does this idea of balance have any relation to the music of the stars described in both the Myth of Er and the Dream of Scipio? If not, where does the idea of heavenly music come from?
It says in Cicero that when a person does something good for the country that they will definitely go to heaven. This seems to be a similar theme to the death of an epic hero. However, could this be the earliest form of propaganda that countries used?
Zander, In the Myth of Er, when he is looking arround he starts describing these 8 circles in confusing details. What exactly were those, and why were they mentioned?
In Scipio's dream Africanus tells him over and over again that the pursuit of glory is fruitless. No one will remember him because people are to spread out and they forget easily. If this is so why then is the pursuit of glory such a big thing in the ancient world? If some believe it is impossible to be remembered why do many of the stories we read have to do with the pursuit of glory?
What was the point of the tale about Scipio? It would seem it starts out telling him he will be a great mortal man one day, but then towards the end the moral of the story seems to be that mortal ambition is pointless. Why would it seem that Scipio was supposed to turn his attention to heaven? (this is my question from the 20th since i read the wrong selection before)
In Plato, pg. 495 to 496, I'm confused/don't understand the philosophical meaning behind the story of the moon and the planets and the men that holding and moving.
In general Plato's writing confuses me, I need a breakdown of what he is trying to say.
In Plato's reading, I liked his idea of 'even if the unjust are not found out at youth, by the end of the race most of them are caught and laughed at for fools' pg 491. This point stuck out to me not only because this was a lesson that my parents tried to ingrain in my brain as a child and still as a young adult, but it was also the moral to one of my favorite tales growing up "The Tortoise and the Hare"
Katie, The note on p. 492 does point out that our word angel is from Greek aggelos which means messenger. Er is supposedly Pamphylian from southern Asia Minor, a place in between the Greeks and the Near Eastern peoples such as Hebrews, Philistines, and Babylonians. I don't think Plato says exactly when Er lived. In any case, the short answer would be that the idea of divine revelation of the afterlife and spiritual world as well as the idea of a spiritual "messenger" is almost certainly adapted from near eastern religion and stories, although Plato's telling is influenced by some similar Greek ideas.
Sara, Cicero did not believe in Zeus/Jupiter and other gods of myth, though he seems to have believed in the divine and probably in specific different deities or spirits. Roman religion was an important part of the state, and well educated men like Cicero believed in gods generally but they did not accept all myths and superstitious beliefs. There is certainly a difference between Roman (1st cent. AD) and Greek (4th cent. BC) religious attitudes, but it does not show decline in interest.
Maeve, Probably both of these passages are connected with Pythagorean mystical thought on numbers and music. Plato knew Pythagorean teachings and seems to be influenced by them. Pythagoras lived in the 6th cent. BC.
Jordann, We mentioned even in Gilgamesh the idea of a culture hero who built or invented things or ruled well. Solon and Lycurgus and Numa are examples of heroized culture heroes who helped save their states. Lycurgus and Gilgamesh were even worshipped as gods of sorts. That said, it certainly should be recalled that Cicero wants people to think of him as just such a hero. When he praises Scipio, he is implicitly praising himself...
Zander, What do you think they are? I think they are usually thought to be explanations for planetary rotations. There is something similar in Scipio's Dream. This kind of description is common in mystical texts from antiquity and today. The rings or spheres or wheels are sometimes called mandalas. They seem to be emblematic of order in the spiritual world. Often they are connected with planets but sometimes also used to describe the functions or organs of spirit beings.
Steve, I think both are important. His mortal accomplishments will earn him a reward in the afterlife.
Shannon, Absolutely, Pythagoras and some other Greeks and later Romans believed in reincarnation. Pythagoras and the Orphics (a Greek mystical cult) seem to have been influenced by Egyptian and Near Eastern thought on the afterlife and reincarnation. For example, Vergil (recalling Plato) seems to hint at reincarnation in his Aeneid book 6.
Krysta, The discs are symbols of the planetary orbits. The fates move them so as to make time pass by and bring about events. I'm not sure what you are confused about.
Doug, Good point, notice though that he says "most" not "all". Plato admits that some evil people make it to death without serious misfortune. This is why the afterlife is needed to provide justice.
Katie Burke
ReplyDeleteFeb. 23
In the Myth of Er, it says that he appeared to them like a 'messenger' (or angel) from the other world. Could this have been influenced by Judaism, or other religions?
Sara Welish
ReplyDeleteFeb. 23
On the second page of The Dream of Scipio, Africanus says "humans are brought into existance in order to inhabit the earth." In our other readings the gods created humans so they will be worshipped. Does this text show the decline of interest in the gods?
Maeve Tischbein
ReplyDeleteFeb. 22
In our last reading music (rhythm and harmony) was used as a metaphor for balance in Eryximachos speech on love. Does this idea of balance have any relation to the music of the stars described in both the Myth of Er and the Dream of Scipio? If not, where does the idea of heavenly music come from?
Jordann Markowitz
ReplyDeleteFeb. 23
It says in Cicero that when a person does something good for the country that they will definitely go to heaven. This seems to be a similar theme to the death of an epic hero. However, could this be the earliest form of propaganda that countries used?
Zander,
ReplyDeleteIn the Myth of Er, when he is looking arround he starts describing these 8 circles in confusing details. What exactly were those, and why were they mentioned?
Erin
ReplyDeleteIn Scipio's dream Africanus tells him over and over again that the pursuit of glory is fruitless. No one will remember him because people are to spread out and they forget easily. If this is so why then is the pursuit of glory such a big thing in the ancient world? If some believe it is impossible to be remembered why do many of the stories we read have to do with the pursuit of glory?
Steve
ReplyDeleteWhat was the point of the tale about Scipio? It would seem it starts out telling him he will be a great mortal man one day, but then towards the end the moral of the story seems to be that mortal ambition is pointless. Why would it seem that Scipio was supposed to turn his attention to heaven? (this is my question from the 20th since i read the wrong selection before)
Shannon Potts
ReplyDeleteIn the Myth of Er, are they suggesting reincarnation?
Krysta Brown
ReplyDeleteIn Plato, pg. 495 to 496, I'm confused/don't understand the philosophical meaning behind the story of the moon and the planets and the men that holding and moving.
In general Plato's writing confuses me, I need a breakdown of what he is trying to say.
Doug Ritchey
ReplyDeleteIn Plato's reading, I liked his idea of 'even if the unjust are not found out at youth, by the end of the race most of them are caught and laughed at for fools' pg 491. This point stuck out to me not only because this was a lesson that my parents tried to ingrain in my brain as a child and still as a young adult, but it was also the moral to one of my favorite tales growing up "The Tortoise and the Hare"
AR's responses
ReplyDeleteKatie,
The note on p. 492 does point out that our word angel is from Greek aggelos which means messenger. Er is supposedly Pamphylian from southern Asia Minor, a place in between the Greeks and the Near Eastern peoples such as Hebrews, Philistines, and Babylonians. I don't think Plato says exactly when Er lived. In any case, the short answer would be that the idea of divine revelation of the afterlife and spiritual world as well as the idea of a spiritual "messenger" is almost certainly adapted from near eastern religion and stories, although Plato's telling is influenced by some similar Greek ideas.
Sara,
Cicero did not believe in Zeus/Jupiter and other gods of myth, though he seems to have believed in the divine and probably in specific different deities or spirits. Roman religion was an important part of the state, and well educated men like Cicero believed in gods generally but they did not accept all myths and superstitious beliefs. There is certainly a difference between Roman (1st cent. AD) and Greek (4th cent. BC) religious attitudes, but it does not show decline in interest.
Maeve,
Probably both of these passages are connected with Pythagorean mystical thought on numbers and music. Plato knew Pythagorean teachings and seems to be influenced by them. Pythagoras lived in the 6th cent. BC.
Jordann,
We mentioned even in Gilgamesh the idea of a culture hero who built or invented things or ruled well. Solon and Lycurgus and Numa are examples of heroized culture heroes who helped save their states. Lycurgus and Gilgamesh were even worshipped as gods of sorts. That said, it certainly should be recalled that Cicero wants people to think of him as just such a hero. When he praises Scipio, he is implicitly praising himself...
Zander,
What do you think they are? I think they are usually thought to be explanations for planetary rotations. There is something similar in Scipio's Dream. This kind of description is common in mystical texts from antiquity and today. The rings or spheres or wheels are sometimes called mandalas. They seem to be emblematic of order in the spiritual world. Often they are connected with planets but sometimes also used to describe the functions or organs of spirit beings.
Steve,
I think both are important. His mortal accomplishments will earn him a reward in the afterlife.
Shannon,
Absolutely, Pythagoras and some other Greeks and later Romans believed in reincarnation. Pythagoras and the Orphics (a Greek mystical cult) seem to have been influenced by Egyptian and Near Eastern thought on the afterlife and reincarnation. For example, Vergil (recalling Plato) seems to hint at reincarnation in his Aeneid book 6.
Krysta,
The discs are symbols of the planetary orbits. The fates move them so as to make time pass by and bring about events.
I'm not sure what you are confused about.
Doug,
Good point, notice though that he says "most" not "all". Plato admits that some evil people make it to death without serious misfortune. This is why the afterlife is needed to provide justice.