Thursday, February 26, 2009

CLS 276 March 6- Alexander Romance

I have managed to shorten the Alexander Romance reading assignment slightly. It will still be rather large, but this will help some.

Friday March 6, we will discuss the following selections from the Anonymous _Alexander Romance_ also called the _Life and Deeds of Alexander of Macedon_. The date of the work or rather works (there are many different versions of the "novel" in existence) is not clearly known. The original Greek composition was between 300 BC and 300 AD (a huge 600 year span), but the version we are reading is based on so-called Recension B, which was in existence at least by the 5th or 6th cent. AD. The romance shows signs of dependence on earlier collections of fictional letters, maybe even an epistolary novel, and shows embellished connections to various historical sources about Alexander.

Note that my reading assignment includes the introduction which will provide useful background.

pp. 163-225 (intro to end of book 2), 238-9 (3.25-26 Amazons), 245-6 (3.33-35 The Death)

Make specific note of any specific divergences from the historical traditions and especially any examples of where the historical tradition has been exaggerated, perverted, or recast. Why do you think these changes are made? What literary themes and story patterns do you see in the romance that we have seen before? Did these occur in the historical sources?

Monday, February 23, 2009

CLS 276 Mensch & Romm on Alexander Part II, March 2

CLS 276 Friday Feb. 27 Mensch & Romm on Alexander Pt. 1

Though Alexander was a historical figure, his history was heavily influenced by earlier myth. Also much of his history became a sort of new myth which influenced the history of later mythical figures. Think of parallels for such a legendary figure from our earlier readings. Make note of any specific recurring themes/story patterns and be ready to share specific parallels. Also Alexander, like many other such figures of myth and history, has been both heroicized and villainized--both of which approaches may be affected by personal bias and thus cause a distortion in the "reality". As you read the various historical accounts, do you tend toward hero or villain in your opinion? If so, why do you feel that way? If not, what keeps you from feeling strongly either way?

Mensch & Romm present a number of historical and biographical sources. We will be reading part of an ancient novel or romance about Alexander on March 6. That will give us a chance to see how Alexander's history transformed into an even more fictionalized version than we see in the historical accounts.

Friday, February 20, 2009

CLS 276- Bryan and Zander's Day, Feb. 25

Bryan and Zander are planning to have us read some other accounts of the afterlife from different cultures--I think they will also have some vid clips to share. They will be sending out Wednesday's assignment by Sunday Feb. 22.

CLS 276 Feb. 23 Plato and Cicero

Post your comments on Feb. 23 here.

CLS 276 Feb. 20 Plato's Symposium

The next few classes we will be reading texts from the ancient genre of philosophy. Ancient philosophical writings, like ancient history, are much different from what we think of as philosophy today. Plato is very influential on Cicero and many others who wrote on philosophy in the ancient world, and Plato wrote dialogues that consist of much fiction and story telling in the guise of factual records. We can sometimes prove that certain events could not have happened as he describes them, and so it is often thought that he made up the stories as a medium for relating his ideas. Sometimes they may be based on real events as with Plato's Apology which is based on Socrates' real defense speech; sometimes they may be total inventions that are simply "possible events" that never actually happened. It is often thought that his earlier writings are closer to what Socrates really thought, and that he later developed his theory of forms which arises in the middle dialogues and is perfected in his last dialogues. In other words, his presentation of Socrates in the middle and especially late dialogues is thought to be heavily influenced by his own thoughts and not historically accurate. It might amuse you to know that there are stories which may or may not be true that Plato was a failed tragic playwright and that he kept a copy of Aristophanes' (the most famous Athenian comedic playwright) complete works with him wherever he went.
Also you should know that Aristophanes, the comic playwright and character in the Symposium, wrote a play called the Clouds which famously criticized Socrates. Whether or not there is truth in the stories about Plato's dramatic obsessions, Plato shows a keen interest in poetry of all kinds, though he often accuses its fictions of leading people away from the truth. Is this fair criticism? Consider ways in which Plato's dialogues resemble plays and other forms of poetry and myth. Why did he write this way?

Some more comments on Friday's reading. This symposium or drinking party is a narrative opportunity for Plato to explore an important theme, Love. At symposia in the Greek world, people would often pass the cup, drink lots of wine, and take turns telling stories or reciting poems. Here they decide not to drink heavily and instead of poems or baudy stories, they share speeches about love. This will be somewhat different than most of what we have read because we are dealing with what will become a new genre, the philosophical dialogue which Plato invented. Still, you will see some stylistic similarities to stories about conversations and debates in Herodotus and Xenophon.

As you take notes, make sure you record the basic gist of each
person's speech, and, of course, pay close attention to Socrates'
speech in which he retells what a lady named Diotima once told him
(Plato is telling a story supposedly told by Apollodorus who heard
from Aristodemus who heard from Socrates who heard from Diotima!!!!).
The various views expressed on love here are very important for
philosophy, religion, and literature. Try to think of comparable
views of love from later literature (including philosophical,
mystical, and religious texts). Also consider if any of these views
of love has occurred in our earlier readings. Finally, what is the
literary point of Alcibiades' appearance? Why doesn't Plato just tell
the story of Diotima? What is the point of all the other characters
and stories in the frame narrative? Where have we seen this kind of
story inside a story inside a story (i.e. multi-level frame
narratives)?

Wednesday, February 4, 2009

CLS 276 "True" History Fictional/Fictive Prose in the Ancient World, Discussion

February 4

Sara Welish

In the Iliad why doesn't anyone come out to help Hector when he is running from Achilles?
AR- To engage our sympathy for poor, ill-fated Hector?

Priam gives reasons for Hector to come back inside the walls but it does not seem like the usual attitude for men during the time. gods get more physically involved in the war
AR- I'm not sure what you mean about Priam


Zander

In the Iliad why did Athena want Hector to die?
AR-He's on the wrong side; remember Athena and Hera are mad at Paris for not choosing them.

Why did Achilles get so furious about the death of Patroclus, wouldn't he be used to his freinds dying in battle?
AR- As with Gilgamesh and Enkidu, Patroclus is more than a friend. In fact, many ancient Greeks thought they may have been lovers, at least in soul, if not in body. We'll see that Alexander's relationshop with Hephaestion is similar. Theseus and his friend Pirithous are also similar.

In Herodotus why did the festival mean that the Greeks couldn't fight?
AR- Spartans are typically portrayed as super-religious in most Greek sources. They have strict rules about observing such festivals. The Olympics was a Pan-hellenic (all-Greek) event which drew many Greeks.

And how true of a story is told here?
AR- Wouldn't we all like to know? Opinions vary even among the best classical scholars. What do you think?


Katie Burke
Why is it that the majority of heroes, from the ancient world to current day, are most always prove themselves in either a war or a series of tasks?
AR- I'm not sure if this is true. You may be using circular logic here. Do you define hero based on that criteria? Could we not have a wise hero like Gandhi or Martin Luther King? Or in the ancient world, how about Socrates or Jesus?

Did ancient motifs and oral traditions have an influence on Anglo-Saxon/Early English epics or stories?
AR- Absolutely. There is a ton of scholarship that suggests connections between Vergil and Beowulf, but this is a scholarly hornet's nest. There are Old and Middle English versions of the History of Apollonius of Tyre, based on a later Latin fictional "history" which was in turn based on a Greek novel that was based on earlier Greek and Near-eastern narratives. This story also was the source for Shakespeare's Pericles. I have translated a medieval Latin epic called Waltharius. It is influenced by both classical and late antique Latin sources and early Germanic sources, and it in turn influenced later Latin, Romance, and Germanic narratives. In fact, Tolkein seems to use the Waltharius' motif of the hero who loses his hand for Beren (one-handed) and Frodo (nine-fingered). Chaucer knew lots of Latin stories, either in Latin or through intermediate sources.


Jordann
Why is there a comparison between heroes and animals? Iliad 22.1-365
AR- Did you notice the bit about Leonidas' roar in the movie clip today? In the ancient world, lions and bulls and boars and bears (or the like) were obvious symbols for power and virility. Most humans cannot compare in strength with such animals. Note a lot of myths about heroes deal with the slaying of such monstrous animals, lions and bulls, etc. (e.g. Gilgamesh and the Bull of Heaven and Heracles' lion-slayings). Partly that reflects the prehistorical and early historical reality of a world in which man faced larger and more dangerous creatures in the world. Think of cave men and saber-toothed tigers and wooly mammoths. In fact, in ancient time lions and panthers still roamed the Near-east and parts of Europe, and aurochs (huge cattle, much bigger than cows/bulls today) survived well into the Roman period. Strong men would have been expected to be the human answer to such dangers.


Pat Boyle
Here is my question: How do heroes in modern epics compare to those in ancient epics?
AR- I think you may need to answer that yourself. What is a modern epic? Are you talking like Jake in the Dark Tower book or Batman?

Maeve
The first was that the name of the character Leon (7.179) had significance to his actions and role in the passage we read. What was the significance?
AR- See above on animals and heroes. Leon = "Lion"

Is it an example of Aetiology?
AR- I think it is a play on words but I don't think it is aetiology.

My second question was that in both The Dark Tower (pg.82) and in the Iliad (top of pg. 4) the importance to live and die with honor was mentioned. I was wondering if this was, or was more than just a theme in modern and ancient texts. Was the importance of honor meant as a moral? But if a moral, does that degrade the authenticity of the "historical" text? In The Dark Tower the mention of honor seemed more like a moral, where in the Iliad a common theme. Is there even much difference between the two classifications?
AR- Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "moral" here.


Krysta Brown

I was intrigued by Priam. It seems that all of the other kings and "great men" we have encountered are strong, heroic warriors, yet Priam is the wise old king. Are there other examples of a more learned, patient leader in Greek epics?

AR- Nestor, Alcinous, Odysseus (to some degree). In Herodotus, we frequently see the wise advisor type figure who has learned from life and shares his knowledge, often to no avail. Of course, I don't know how you are defining epic. Do you mean specifically only in epic poetry?

Doug
I just wanted to point out a #4 Common motif from different times and places. In the Herodotus reading on 7.190 Ameinocles, song of Cretines found all of these Persian treasures being washed up on the shore. His great luck is later followed by bad luck, where he ends up killing his own children. This motif is similar to modern day rural theology of Money does not always bring happiness. It is just very interesting to see a theme touched on within these older readings still hold weight in the modern world.
AR- "rural theology"? Certainly Gilgamesh learned that wealth does not provide happiness. Herodotus tells this kind of story frequently. A life can never be called happy (fortunate), until one dies well--so Herodotus and many others in the ancient and modern world think.


Rich
In the Iliad reading, I noticed a reference to the God Mars who is the Roman God of war. In greek mythology Mars is actually named Ares. How often do the names these Greek and Roman Gods switch and for what purpose?
AR- This is a translational problem. Homer would have said (he didn't write) Ares, but some translators change names to the Roman equivalent.


Stephen
How is Leonidas depicted by Herodotus? He did not seek the kingship, but it was forced upon him, does this make him more or less heroic in the eyes of Herodotus.
AR- Good question. We can't visit Herodotus in the underworld like Heracles would do, so this is a moment for reader response theory--- How did it change your view of him? I personally think it further adds to his glory and highlights his rare (good?) fortune.