Bryan and Zander are planning to have us read some other accounts of the afterlife from different cultures--I think they will also have some vid clips to share. They will be sending out Wednesday's assignment by Sunday Feb. 22.
What dates are the Egyptian and Norse readings from? Might the Greeks have taken their myth of Demeter (her actions after the abduction of Persephone) from this Egyptian myth of Isis? They seem very similar, and follows what seems to be a major theme.
Though much Greek myth and religion has some influence from Egyptian sources, I would hesitate to judge the extent here, since the summary of the Isis-Osiris myth is based on Plutarch's version. Plutarch (1st-2nd cent. AD), being Greek and hundreds of years after the Greek origin of the Demeter myth and close to 2000 years after the origin of the Osiris myth, is not a very trustworthy source; he is likely to have used an intermediate Greek source, and either he or his Greek source has clearly made the Egyptian story reflect Greek mythical elements. Still very interesting from a comparative literary point of view, but don't think this is how ancient Egyptians of the 2nd millenium BC thought about Osiris. Note that the hymn in the Osiris reading is supposed to be 18th dynasty so it is an early Egyptian source (1550-1292 BC, 18th dynasty includes famous rulers such as Hatshepsut, Akenaten and wife Nefertiti, Tutankhamun). Make sure to note the elements of the Osiris-Isis myth that resemble the Demeter myth so we can discuss. Demeter is one of many non-Egyptian goddesses often connected with Isis.
In Baldrs Draumar, in note 6 it says that the Wise-Woman actually knew that she was speaking to a god but in stanza 14 it says that she thought he really was Vegtam. Is the note wrong or am I reading it wrong?
Is the significance of Osiris being found in a tree the fact that he was a head of a country? Was Osiris not only metaphorically, but physically the base of a tree from which future generation would come from?
It says that upon Osiris's death "the Egyptians hoped that his body might rise again..." Did this story have any impact of Christianity? Or is this just coincidental?
The wise-women in Baldrs Dream seems to be an oracle from the otherworld, or the dead. What other examples have we seen of this? What makes those oracles different from this wise-women?
I thought the Dilbert comics were funny because of how it depicts our modern day view of sin. Instead of viewing all sins as bad, we tend to view some sins as being worse than others; Dilbert also made a reference to the common motif of immortality, in this case through the telling of legends.
When reading the story of Osiris, I couldn't help but notice the parallels between that and Christianity. The idea that Osiris was killed and then brought back from death, he then became the ruler of the after-life, the undying and the conqueror of death. It is the idea that before a god can actually beat death, they must die themselves.
I am wondering about the author of the Egyptian texts. Is he a prominent Egyptologist, I'm not convinced about his generalities of the Egyptian afterlife and the idea that they were completely unchanging for thousands of years. There had to be some variation in contemporary thought. Right?
Sara, Note 6 does not actually say that she recognized him, if you read it carefully. It says that she would not have talked to him if she knew who he was.
Maeve, It is very strange isn't it? Set (Typhon) kills Osiris; Horus, the son of Isis and Osiris, avenges Osiris and captures Set (Typhon) and then Isis sets Set (Typhon) free. Does anyone have any suggestions? I am not sure why, but Isis seems to be parallel to some of the early matriarchal goddesses in Greek and Near Eastern myth. Consider the changing alliances of Tiamat in the Enuma Elish. Also in the Greek creation stories Gaea (wife of Uranus) and Rhea (wife of Cronus) at times turn against their husbands and/or progeny. Perhaps there is a connection to the story of Tiamat in the Sumerian version of the Enuma Elish.
Jordann, In note 3 on that passage, the author tells us that the piece of wood is still in his day preserved in the temple of Isis at Byblos. This is a clear aetiological tale to explain the origin of a cult object. That said, I think that there may be some significance to your symbolic interpretation of the tree. Also trees are often associated with life. Is the tree perhaps a symbol for his rebirth? It is hard to tell what was going on in the original source since we read a modern summary and interpretation of Plutarch who probably based his story on a Greek translation or retelling of a late Egyptian version.
Katie, As we discussed in class today, Osiris' death and rebirth and his role as the model for others to follow if they too would conquer death is the prototype for the savior god. Christ is the most well known example of this type. In the Greek tradition, both the god Dionysus and the hero Orpheus are similarly killed, torn apart, and then later reborn in some sense greater. Christ follows a similar pattern though without being torn into pieces. In the ancient, the religions connected with these kind of figures are generally called mystery cults. Shannon had noted some similarities between the Osiris-Isis reading and the story of Demeter whose daughter Persephone ends up living in the underworld part of the year but returning above for the rest--another symbol of life reborn. By the way, extreme sceptics believe that Christianity is merely a copycat of other ancient mystery religions such as the worship of Dionysus and Osiris. Even many Christian scholars of the early church recognize and admit the influence of such pagan religions and of pagan philosophy (especially Plato, the Stoics,and Neo-platonists) on the development of certain aspects of Christianity.
Erin, Good point, Erin. I think that my best parallel is that of Tiresias in the Odyssey book 11 because he is summoned by spells, like the volva is by Odin. There is also the spirit summoned by the witch in Lucan's Civil War. However, in this class the oracles that we have read have generally come from gods either directly or through their priests or priestesses. I think the magic and consultation of the dead makes it trickier (i.e. deception is a narrative component) and "ickier". I am drawn to think of the Witch of Endor in the Bible.
Doug, Good point about sins being judged on a scale, note that Plato seems to share that view as he clearly shows gradations of treatment in the underworld. Also in the Greek and Roman heroic tradition (we have not read the Odyssey book 11 or Aeneid book 6) souls receive specific punishments based on their evils. The idea that any sin is worthy of death is derived from the New Testament. Good to notice the theme of immortality through stories--it is an ever-present literary motif.
Steve, You are absolutely right. See above in my response to Katie. I think that this idea is shared by all mystery religions because you must "survive" death some how if you are going to bring back the mysteries of the afterlife and the spiritual world. Osiris and Christ in particular conquer death to the extent that they can show others the way to beat it too.
Krysta, I agree with you. I am not familiar with this author but I am sure this text is dated. Recent material cannot be posted on line because of copyright. Certainly he is wrong about Egyptian views not changing, though their views were more slow to change than in later cultures due to the deficiency in cultural interchange. This brings up your point in class today. Ancient societies did not have as much interchange as we do today. Still, I think that our readings have clearly shown that connections existed between all of the societies around the Mediterranean. Interchanges were just fewer and more difficult for them than for us, but it still happened fairly frequently. Trade was one major reason for travel, conquest another, and religion another (consider Croesus and Midas consulting the oracle at Delphi).
Shannon Potts
ReplyDeleteWhat dates are the Egyptian and Norse readings from? Might the Greeks have taken their myth of Demeter (her actions after the abduction of Persephone) from this Egyptian myth of Isis? They seem very similar, and follows what seems to be a major theme.
Shannon,
ReplyDeleteThough much Greek myth and religion has some influence from Egyptian sources, I would hesitate to judge the extent here, since the summary of the Isis-Osiris myth is based on Plutarch's version. Plutarch (1st-2nd cent. AD), being Greek and hundreds of years after the Greek origin of the Demeter myth and close to 2000 years after the origin of the Osiris myth, is not a very trustworthy source; he is likely to have used an intermediate Greek source, and either he or his Greek source has clearly made the Egyptian story reflect Greek mythical elements. Still very interesting from a comparative literary point of view, but don't think this is how ancient Egyptians of the 2nd millenium BC thought about Osiris. Note that the hymn in the Osiris reading is supposed to be 18th dynasty so it is an early Egyptian source (1550-1292 BC, 18th dynasty includes famous rulers such as Hatshepsut, Akenaten and wife Nefertiti, Tutankhamun). Make sure to note the elements of the Osiris-Isis myth that resemble the Demeter myth so we can discuss. Demeter is one of many non-Egyptian goddesses often connected with Isis.
Sara Welish
ReplyDeleteIn Baldrs Draumar, in note 6 it says that the Wise-Woman actually knew that she was speaking to a god but in stanza 14 it says that she thought he really was Vegtam. Is the note wrong or am I reading it wrong?
Maeve Tischbein
ReplyDeleteFeb. 20
Why did Isis release Typhon after her son had captured him? I didn't understand this part of the reading.
Jordann Markowitz
ReplyDeleteFeb. 25
Is the significance of Osiris being found in a tree the fact that he was a head of a country? Was Osiris not only metaphorically, but physically the base of a tree from which future generation would come from?
Katie Burke
ReplyDeleteFeb. 25
It says that upon Osiris's death "the Egyptians hoped that his body might rise again..." Did this story have any impact of Christianity? Or is this just coincidental?
Erin
ReplyDeleteFeb. 25
The wise-women in Baldrs Dream seems to be an oracle from the otherworld, or the dead. What other examples have we seen of this? What makes those oracles different from this wise-women?
Doug Ritchey
ReplyDeleteI thought the Dilbert comics were funny because of how it depicts our modern day view of sin. Instead of viewing all sins as bad, we tend to view some sins as being worse than others; Dilbert also made a reference to the common motif of immortality, in this case through the telling of legends.
Steve
ReplyDeleteWhen reading the story of Osiris, I couldn't help but notice the parallels between that and Christianity. The idea that Osiris was killed and then brought back from death, he then became the ruler of the after-life, the undying and the conqueror of death. It is the idea that before a god can actually beat death, they must die themselves.
I am wondering about the author of the Egyptian texts. Is he a prominent Egyptologist, I'm not convinced about his generalities of the Egyptian afterlife and the idea that they were completely unchanging for thousands of years. There had to be some variation in contemporary thought. Right?
ReplyDeleteKrysta Brown
AR
ReplyDeleteSara,
Note 6 does not actually say that she recognized him, if you read it carefully. It says that she would not have talked to him if she knew who he was.
Maeve,
It is very strange isn't it? Set (Typhon) kills Osiris; Horus, the son of Isis and Osiris, avenges Osiris and captures Set (Typhon) and then Isis sets Set (Typhon) free. Does anyone have any suggestions? I am not sure why, but Isis seems to be parallel to some of the early matriarchal goddesses in Greek and Near Eastern myth. Consider the changing alliances of Tiamat in the Enuma Elish. Also in the Greek creation stories Gaea (wife of Uranus) and Rhea (wife of Cronus) at times turn against their husbands and/or progeny. Perhaps there is a connection to the story of Tiamat in the Sumerian version of the Enuma Elish.
Jordann,
In note 3 on that passage, the author tells us that the piece of wood is still in his day preserved in the temple of Isis at Byblos. This is a clear aetiological tale to explain the origin of a cult object. That said, I think that there may be some significance to your symbolic interpretation of the tree. Also trees are often associated with life. Is the tree perhaps a symbol for his rebirth? It is hard to tell what was going on in the original source since we read a modern summary and interpretation of Plutarch who probably based his story on a Greek translation or retelling of a late Egyptian version.
Katie,
As we discussed in class today, Osiris' death and rebirth and his role as the model for others to follow if they too would conquer death is the prototype for the savior god. Christ is the most well known example of this type. In the Greek tradition, both the god Dionysus and the hero Orpheus are similarly killed, torn apart, and then later reborn in some sense greater. Christ follows a similar pattern though without being torn into pieces. In the ancient, the religions connected with these kind of figures are generally called mystery cults. Shannon had noted some similarities between the Osiris-Isis reading and the story of Demeter whose daughter Persephone ends up living in the underworld part of the year but returning above for the rest--another symbol of life reborn. By the way, extreme sceptics believe that Christianity is merely a copycat of other ancient mystery religions such as the worship of Dionysus and Osiris. Even many Christian scholars of the early church recognize and admit the influence of such pagan religions and of pagan philosophy (especially Plato, the Stoics,and Neo-platonists) on the development of certain aspects of Christianity.
Erin,
Good point, Erin. I think that my best parallel is that of Tiresias in the Odyssey book 11 because he is summoned by spells, like the volva is by Odin. There is also the spirit summoned by the witch in Lucan's Civil War. However, in this class the oracles that we have read have generally come from gods either directly or through their priests or priestesses. I think the magic and consultation of the dead makes it trickier (i.e. deception is a narrative component) and "ickier". I am drawn to think of the Witch of Endor in the Bible.
Doug,
Good point about sins being judged on a scale, note that Plato seems to share that view as he clearly shows gradations of treatment in the underworld. Also in the Greek and Roman heroic tradition (we have not read the Odyssey book 11 or Aeneid book 6) souls receive specific punishments based on their evils. The idea that any sin is worthy of death is derived from the New Testament. Good to notice the theme of immortality through stories--it is an ever-present literary motif.
Steve,
You are absolutely right. See above in my response to Katie. I think that this idea is shared by all mystery religions because you must "survive" death some how if you are going to bring back the mysteries of the afterlife and the spiritual world. Osiris and Christ in particular conquer death to the extent that they can show others the way to beat it too.
Krysta,
I agree with you. I am not familiar with this author but I am sure this text is dated. Recent material cannot be posted on line because of copyright. Certainly he is wrong about Egyptian views not changing, though their views were more slow to change than in later cultures due to the deficiency in cultural interchange. This brings up your point in class today. Ancient societies did not have as much interchange as we do today. Still, I think that our readings have clearly shown that connections existed between all of the societies around the Mediterranean. Interchanges were just fewer and more difficult for them than for us, but it still happened fairly frequently. Trade was one major reason for travel, conquest another, and religion another (consider Croesus and Midas consulting the oracle at Delphi).