The texts we are reading this time are two fictional or forged "contemporary" accounts of the events of the Trojan War. What connections do you see between the methods and themes of these writers? What connections do you see with narratives that we have already discussed, specifically epic poetry and history?
Think about why someone would take the trouble to write such a long, fictive retelling of the Trojan War, as if from an eyewitness. Also how do you think the original Greek and Latin audiences would have responded?
By the way, these two texts were incredibly influential on all medieval Trojan stories. Homer's Iliad and Odyssey were not known directly until the Renaissance.
Dares Phrygius or "Dares the Phrygian"
Latin 5th cent. AD, based on an earlier Latin or Greek original of 2nd cent. AD or earlier
For Dares Phrygius, read the whole thing introductory letter through section 44:
http://www.theoi.com/Text/DaresPhrygius.html
Dictys Cretensis or "Dictys the Cretan"
Latin 4th cent. AD, based on and earlier Greek version
For Dictys Cretensis, read the preface and Book 3.
http://www.theoi.com/Text/DictysCretensis1.html#Preface
http://www.theoi.com/Text/DictysCretensis3.html
Jordann Markowitz
ReplyDeleteWhat was the point of the difference in how Hector died from the previous account we read?
Sara Welish
ReplyDeleteIn the preface of Dictys' text, it says in one place that he wrote 6 books and in another place it says he wrote 9 books. Why is there a discrepancy?
Katie Burke
ReplyDeleteIn this account the Trojans, and Hector especially, are portrayed as criminals, like when Hector drags the body of Patrocles from battle. What is the importance of making the Trojans look like criminals?
Maeve Tischbein
ReplyDeleteIn the history written by Dictys it seems that women had a larger role in the story than in other accounts we've read (i.e. Polyxena sparking Achilles hatred of Hector and later bargaining for Hector's body). Is there a reason for this?
Erin Bradley
ReplyDeleteDictys history of the Trojan war is more believable in some ways then Homer's Iliad. It doesn't have the gods interference, and the deaths of the heros seem more plausible. Did Dictys write it in this way so people would think it was a true story?
Krysta Brown
ReplyDeleteIn Dictys history of the Trojan war, lust for a woman is still the catalyst but this time it is Polyxena. Was Polyxena the amazon in Homer's account, or is she similar to Bresias?
Shannon Potts
ReplyDeleteWho were Hippodamia and Diomedea? (Dictys 3.12, the funeral of Patroclus) What would be the significance of having women with the warriors in this version, when in Homer the only women were captives and slaves?
Jordann,
ReplyDeleteDictys and Dares give different accounts of Hector's death. Each has its own motivations. You have to keep in mind the the supposed author of each narrative as the stories are told in character as it were.
Sara,
The manuscripts all say "6 books", but as your footnote points out, other ancient sources say 9 books, so the translator has written "9 books". Perhaps the original Greek Dictys had 9 books that were combined into the 6 book Latin version.
Katie,
You presumably mean in Dictys. Remember the supposed author of Dictys was a Greek who fought at Troy. Thus his view of Trojans is in character.
Maeve,
What do you think? We could speculate a lot and it would be interesting but of course we can't summon the author up from the dead to ask. ;)
Erin,
Good point. Both Dictys and Dares do not include the gods as present characters in their narrative although prophecies and dreams do play a role as in ancient historians. The lack of gods is clearly part of the rationalizing view which makes them seem real.
Krysta,
Polyxena is the daughter of Priam.
Shannon,
In Homer even though the women are captives and as good as slaves, the men clearly honor them as more. Remember Achilles talks about Briseis as if she were his wife, and Agamemnon says that he values Chryseis more than his wife. It is not a simple issue. Still, generally speaking the women in the Iliad are less important to the story.
Steve Fusco
ReplyDeleteI noticed that in Dictys, there seems to be much more detail about the actual battles than in other ancient historical writings. Specifically, in 3.13 when describing a Trojan counter-attack. Normally these details are brushed over, so why is it present in this writing?
Zander
ReplyDeleteI liked this version of the Trojan war a lot better. in the homer version, it makes Achilles out to be kind of a child, while he is a lot wiser and seems to make better decisions in Dictys. I also really liked how Dictys added the theme of Alexander being abandoned after a prophecy that he would bring about the fall of Troy. I was wondering one thing though, in Dicty's version did the war still last for 10 years? Because the w that he was describing it, it seems as if it should have taken the Greeks at most a couple of months to kill everyone in the city.
Doug Ritchey
ReplyDeleteIn the class readings we have encountered numerous accounts of Bow&Arrows being very powerful and important weapons, as well as symbolizing the power of the person who used the bow. With this being said, I thought it was interesting that in Dictys' Book 3, of all the games that were held after Hectors death, the archery contest was the event covered the most and seemed to be the most important amongst the competitors.
Steve,
ReplyDeleteRemember the supposed source. Dictys was supposed to be an eyewitness. Also remember who Dictys is supposed to be. His character governs the nature of the description at 3.13.
Zander,
The story of Alexander's abandonment goes back to a much earlier source even than this, though Homer does not mention it. Notice it is a motif we have seen before. I did not count up the time in Dictys so I'm not sure, but I got the same impression.
Andrew Gordon
ReplyDeleteIs Achilles still meant to be God-like in this version? It seems in most accounts he is unable to be harmed, but this version leaves him injured (with an arrow to the hand). He fails to capture Hector initially, so is this meant to portray him in a more human manner instead of a god?
Doug,
ReplyDeleteGood point, bows are not very important and somewhat ridiculed in the Iliad of Homer. It may interest you to know that Dictys has greatly changed the story from Iliad 23, where Teucer, the best archer, misses the bird because he did not pray to gods first. Instead he hits the cord and cuts it loose. Then Meriones quickly prays and shoots the bird as it flies off. Meriones wins. What do you think the point of the change is?
Andrew,
ReplyDeleteIn both versions Achilles is not as godlike as in the Iliad. In Dares in particular he is much weaker. Why do you think so?
AR