Jordann Markowitz Romulus and Remus had a similar childhood to Cyrus (in Herodutus). Was there a reason for this common theme of being raised outside of royalty? Would it be because then it could be made to seem that they understand the common people?
I noticed that after the Senate took hold of Rome from the Kings, there was a lot of turmoil and struggles for power. Did this occur throughout the history of Rome up until Caesar, or did we only read the stories that had that?
Regarding the stories of Tarquins' sons have we come across any other relationships where sons do deceitful things for their fathers or with their fathers?
Also, are the Pomerium and the Servian wall the same wall?
When we read the Life of Numa by Plutarch it was noted that scholars today weren't even sure if Numa existed. Does the account of him (book one, ch. 19-21 in The Rise of Rome help support his existence?
In Plutarch, and in Livy, we read that Romulus had ascended into heaven, being enveloped by a cloud. Might this be related to, or perhaps borrow from, the story of the earlier Romulus being struck by lighting (1.3)?
Noticed a trend. Once again, there is the idea that when a woman becomes "mysteriously" pregnant, it is because the father is a god. You can see this in 1.4 with the Vestal getting, presumably, raped and then blaming it on Mars. Was this a common practice when a mother didn't know who the father was and tried to avoid reproach? Or is this a storytelling technique?
When Crassus lost his standard to the Parthians, did the Roman's consider this spolia opima, but in the opposite, more embarrassing sense, or did they abstain from making the splia opima connection here? If so, did they consider Augustus' return of the standards as spolia opima even though he supposedly negotiated their return "diplomatically"?
When Romulus takes the women from the peoples of Caenina, Crustumerium and Antemnae he commits a great insult. Why didn't Neptune intercede when the festival in his honor turned into a disgrace? Shouldn't Romulus have had to answer to the gods for this?
I found a couple of things confusing. First, when the Sabines invaded the citadel (book one part 11) and it says that the priestest was "crushed under the weight of their weapons" did that mean that they killed her by stabbing her, or was she literally crushed? I was also wondering why exactly Hercules was mentioned. If it was just to show that another great hero founded temples, it seems like it has too little info to be useful to anyone, whether they had heard the story or not, so seemed kind of pointless.
As we discussed in class, there are many narrative functions for such a childhood. Primarily, it allows the inherent nobility of the child to be seen as he succeeds in a meagre environment. It does seem that they are portrayed as champions of their people. Moses in the bible is similarly his people's champion, though in his case he is not royal but is raised by royalty.
Katie, Roman history is full of such struggles.
Sara, No, Romulus was the new king; no one wanted to question him. (Remember this is just a story.)
Erin, The story of Jacob being advised by his mother is the closest parallel that I can think of. The Pomerium is the sacred space just outside of the wall.
Maeve, The existence and the length of Livy's narrative about Numa does not prove he really existed. In the ancient world there were histories about Heracles, Dionysus, and even Zeus as "real" people. They were often even longer than Livy's story of Numa. However, those who believe that there was a real Numa (and many do) examine Livy for clues to what might be real.
Shannon, As explained in class, the Romulus Silvius character is a late invention to make Roman history fit Greek chronological research. It may be that he was marked by the lightning bolt story as special, since the famous Romulus would inherit his name. I should point out that often famous people/heroes in history would share or repeat names. For example, there were supposed to be many Heracleses: 2, 3, 6, even 42 different ones. Often they were viewed as rivals who emulated and tried to surpass their predecessors.
Krysta, They certainly saw it as a very major loss, and some Romans might have seen it as almost the opposite of the spolia opima (the exact opposite would require that Crassus be killed and stripped by the enemy commander--which I have never seen suggested anywhere). Certainly Augustus highlighted his retrieval of the standards for propagandistic purposes, and it was meant to show his power, though he had not fought a battle as commander to obtain them.
Andrew, First, remember that this is most likely fiction. Second even if Romulus ever existed (many doubt this) and if he actually did and suffered all that Livy describes, it does not seem that he was very happy or fortunate. He kills his brother and is himself supposedly killed (Livy hints strongly at this) by his political enemies. Perhaps one could see his unhappy life and death as retribution. However, we should note that sometimes heroes do get away with insulting the gods. For example, Heracles in the myths attacks several gods such as Hades, Ocean, and Helios but never has to pay for it.
Zander, It meant that she was buried under a mass of weapons. Hercules is always important in ancient history because he is in the Greco-Roman tradition at least THE GREATEST MORTAL EVER. Sometimes his name is used as a sort of title as it were for all great men. All other great men must necessarily be compared with Hercules. There is a lot of implicit comparison here between Hercules, Evander (Good man), Romulus, and Augustus. Finally, the Ara Maxima or "Greatest Altar" which Hercules' makes is supposedly the oldest cult at Rome (made long before Rome itself) and the only foreign cult accepted by Romulus. Why? Because the whole idea of the cult was that Hercules was like Romulus, a mortal man who claimed immortality through virtue or excellence.
Jordann Markowitz
ReplyDeleteRomulus and Remus had a similar childhood to Cyrus (in Herodutus). Was there a reason for this common theme of being raised outside of royalty? Would it be because then it could be made to seem that they understand the common people?
Katie Burke
ReplyDeleteI noticed that after the Senate took hold of Rome from the Kings, there was a lot of turmoil and struggles for power. Did this occur throughout the history of Rome up until Caesar, or did we only read the stories that had that?
Sara Welish
ReplyDeleteWas Romulus punished in any way for killing Remus? It seems like the Romans just let it go and let Romulus be king.
Erin
ReplyDeleteRegarding the stories of Tarquins' sons have we come across any other relationships where sons do deceitful things for their fathers or with their fathers?
Also, are the Pomerium and the Servian wall the same wall?
Maeve Tischbein
ReplyDeleteWhen we read the Life of Numa by Plutarch it was noted that scholars today weren't even sure if Numa existed. Does the account of him (book one, ch. 19-21 in The Rise of Rome help support his existence?
Shannon Potts
ReplyDeleteIn Plutarch, and in Livy, we read that Romulus had ascended into heaven, being enveloped by a cloud. Might this be related to, or perhaps borrow from, the story of the earlier Romulus being struck by lighting (1.3)?
Steve Fusco
ReplyDeleteNoticed a trend. Once again, there is the idea that when a woman becomes "mysteriously" pregnant, it is because the father is a god. You can see this in 1.4 with the Vestal getting, presumably, raped and then blaming it on Mars. Was this a common practice when a mother didn't know who the father was and tried to avoid reproach? Or is this a storytelling technique?
Krysta Brown
ReplyDeleteWhen Crassus lost his standard to the Parthians, did the Roman's consider this spolia opima, but in the opposite, more embarrassing sense, or did they abstain from making the splia opima connection here? If so, did they consider Augustus' return of the standards as spolia opima even though he supposedly negotiated their return "diplomatically"?
Andrew Gordon
ReplyDeleteWhen Romulus takes the women from the peoples of Caenina, Crustumerium and Antemnae he commits a great insult. Why didn't Neptune intercede when the festival in his honor turned into a disgrace? Shouldn't Romulus have had to answer to the gods for this?
Zander Fodor
ReplyDeleteI found a couple of things confusing. First, when the Sabines invaded the citadel (book one part 11) and it says that the priestest was "crushed under the weight of their weapons" did that mean that they killed her by stabbing her, or was she literally crushed? I was also wondering why exactly Hercules was mentioned. If it was just to show that another great hero founded temples, it seems like it has too little info to be useful to anyone, whether they had heard the story or not, so seemed kind of pointless.
AR
ReplyDeleteJordann,
As we discussed in class, there are many narrative functions for such a childhood. Primarily, it allows the inherent nobility of the child to be seen as he succeeds in a meagre environment. It does seem that they are portrayed as champions of their people. Moses in the bible is similarly his people's champion, though in his case he is not royal but is raised by royalty.
Katie,
Roman history is full of such struggles.
Sara,
No, Romulus was the new king; no one wanted to question him. (Remember this is just a story.)
Erin,
The story of Jacob being advised by his mother is the closest parallel that I can think of. The Pomerium is the sacred space just outside of the wall.
Maeve,
The existence and the length of Livy's narrative about Numa does not prove he really existed. In the ancient world there were histories about Heracles, Dionysus, and even Zeus as "real" people. They were often even longer than Livy's story of Numa. However, those who believe that there was a real Numa (and many do) examine Livy for clues to what might be real.
Shannon,
As explained in class, the Romulus Silvius character is a late invention to make Roman history fit Greek chronological research. It may be that he was marked by the lightning bolt story as special, since the famous Romulus would inherit his name. I should point out that often famous people/heroes in history would share or repeat names. For example, there were supposed to be many Heracleses: 2, 3, 6, even 42 different ones. Often they were viewed as rivals who emulated and tried to surpass their predecessors.
Krysta,
They certainly saw it as a very major loss, and some Romans might have seen it as almost the opposite of the spolia opima (the exact opposite would require that Crassus be killed and stripped by the enemy commander--which I have never seen suggested anywhere). Certainly Augustus highlighted his retrieval of the standards for propagandistic purposes, and it was meant to show his power, though he had not fought a battle as commander to obtain them.
Andrew,
First, remember that this is most likely fiction. Second even if Romulus ever existed (many doubt this) and if he actually did and suffered all that Livy describes, it does not seem that he was very happy or fortunate. He kills his brother and is himself supposedly killed (Livy hints strongly at this) by his political enemies. Perhaps one could see his unhappy life and death as retribution. However, we should note that sometimes heroes do get away with insulting the gods. For example, Heracles in the myths attacks several gods such as Hades, Ocean, and Helios but never has to pay for it.
Zander,
It meant that she was buried under a mass of weapons. Hercules is always important in ancient history because he is in the Greco-Roman tradition at least THE GREATEST MORTAL EVER. Sometimes his name is used as a sort of title as it were for all great men. All other great men must necessarily be compared with Hercules. There is a lot of implicit comparison here between Hercules, Evander (Good man), Romulus, and Augustus. Finally, the Ara Maxima or "Greatest Altar" which Hercules' makes is supposedly the oldest cult at Rome (made long before Rome itself) and the only foreign cult accepted by Romulus. Why? Because the whole idea of the cult was that Hercules was like Romulus, a mortal man who claimed immortality through virtue or excellence.